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Phidias
Homo Pacificus
Age : 33
Inscrit le : 04 Juil 2007
Messages : 3292
Localisation : ... dans le désert
|  Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ?  Mar Avr 01, 2008 8:32 pm | |
| | Ihsen abderrahmen a écrit: | | Citation: | | Mais au moins que ce soit pour des bonnes raisons comme l'amour du prochain, le vivre ensemble, l'initiation à une dimension verticale de l'existence |
tu penses qu'on ne peut pas concrétiser ces notions sans se référer aux religions ?
|
bien sûr que si puisque c'est l'un des fondements de ma démarche personnelle
au début, pour moi, les religions étaient des écoles de Vie, d'Amour, de Tolérance, etc, et lorsque j'ai commencé à en percevoir le côté obscur et humain, trop humain, j'ai préféré largué les amarres culturels (avant de devenir un Dark Vador de plus) pour rechercher ces mêmes valeurs hors des religions
et effectivement je les ai trouvé (et essaie au mieux de les pratiquer)
toutefois, pour être d'une parfaite probité intellectuelle, je dois admettre que la religion a participé à mon initiation, à mon éveil spirituel, avec un apprentissage culturel utile à défaut d'être structurant
mais une initiation est un passage ... et le meilleur est après, dans son surpassement,
_________________
Vivre et laisser Vivre !
=> http://blog-alternatif.blogspot.com/ |
|  | | Kouta
Homo Habilis
Inscrit le : 12 Sep 2007
Messages : 466
Localisation : Paris
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Sam Avr 05, 2008 12:56 pm | |
| Je suis issu d'une famille modeste et modestement religieuse (Père et mère qui prient, mère et aucune autre femme de ma famille ne porte le voile). Je ne me suis jmais senti Musulman, et pendant le ramadan, ma mère me préparait mon p'tit dej le matin avant d'aller à l'ecole.
en grandissant un peu plus, j'ai déclaré et affirmé plus clairement mon agnoticisme puis mon athéisme aboutissant à une forme d'islamophobie qui a irrité plus d'un (pas mal de personnes sur ce forum savent de quoi je parle). J'ai énormément gené avec mes analyses du texte coranique pour démontrer par A+B que ce n'était qu'une invention Humaine et que l'Islam est à 100% la cause de notre retard et notre incivillisation. Ca a duré des années et des années.
Mais hélas, plus je rentrais au cour de cette religion, de son Histoire, de son Texte fondateur et surtout dans la biographie de son Humain 1er (Mohammed), pour mieux l'attaquer ... plus je commencais à reconnaitre au fond de moi meme l'extreme mauvaise foi dans la quelle je baignais sans pour autant vouloir publiquemnt l'admettre. Tous ces livres que j'ai acheté pour mieu percer les points faibles de cette religion, sont devenus ces memes livres qui m'ont fait changé pas mal d'idées.
Je ne peux vraiment pas me rappeler comment ca s'est pasé ni quand exactement. Je n'ai pas sentit du tout un chagment dans ma personne ni dans mes principes ... mais le coeur Lui ...
Bref, y a de quoi rédiger tout un livre, mais je ne garde qu'une seule idée :
Croire est fondamentalement une question de coeur !
Ca fait tout juste +/- 3 ans que je suis Musulman (sans en etre un des pieux). |
| | | | Ihsen abderrahmen
Homo Habilis
Age : 30
Inscrit le : 27 Jan 2008
Messages : 181
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Sam Avr 12, 2008 3:29 pm | |
| tu m'as ébloui
_________________
وَأَحْسِن كَمَا أَحْسَنَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ
"rendre plus agréable ma vie et celle des autres, et chercher la vérité" |
| | | | Holy Trousers
Homo Pacificus
Age : 21
Inscrit le : 28 Mar 2008
Messages : 1295
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mar Juin 10, 2008 1:08 am | |
| Voici un texte interessant sur l'authenticite du Coran
| Spoiler: | | |
By Dr. Gary Miller**
It must be stressed that the Qur’an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the Qur’an’s information. The emphasis is in the other direction, in that the burden of proof is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur’an’s authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then one has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur’an encourages.
Looking for Mistakes
Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, “I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur’an.” Of course, I said, “Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said.” Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur’an’s authenticity, because the Qur’an itself offers the same challenge. And inevitably, after accepting its challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur’an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity.
An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur’an is that one’s inability to explain a phenomenon oneself does not require one’s acceptance of the phenomenon’s existence or another person’s explanation of it. Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else’s explanation. However, the person’s refusal of other explanations returns the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life but fits most wonderfully with the Qur’anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, “I do not believe it.” At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation oneself if one feels others’ answers are inadequate.
In fact, in one particular Qur’anic verse that I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if one hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from immediately or even at a later date.
One cannot just let it rattle around in one’s head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculative, then one must discern whether it’s closer to being true or false. But if all the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, one is still required to process all the information and make the admission that one just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research, and review the facts.
This familiarity with the information will give the person “the edge” when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
Exhausting the Alternatives
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur’an is evident in the confidence that is prevalent throughout it, and this confidence comes from a different approach: exhausting the alternatives.” In essence, the Qur’an states, “This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?” In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have been exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduced to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other.
On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur’an for hundreds of years and who claim, “One thing we know for sure: That man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!” They are convinced that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is a group that alleges, “Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was a liar!” Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradictions.
In fact, many references to Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by stating that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was crazy and then end by saying he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both! For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, “How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?” He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation.
The Critic’s Trail
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur’an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if someone is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, “Does anyone know the answer?” This type of behavior is characteristic of someone who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or one can be a liar. One can be either one or neither one, but one certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personality traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, “What is the origin of the Qur’an?” he tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, “If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur’an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar.” So in order to explain the fact that you bring him, he changes his position and says, “Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet.” At this point then you have to ask him, “If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?” Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, “Well, maybe he wasn’t a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet.” And thus he begins the futile cycle again.
Authenticity of the Qur’an: Another Approach
(Part 2)*
By Dr. Gary Miller**
As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur’an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) about the wall of Dhul Qarnayn—a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: “If Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people outright to their face what others could never say?” Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true, divine revelation.
A Revelation: Abu Lahab
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and he would go to the stranger and ask him, “What did he tell you? Did he say, ‘Black?’ Well, it’s white. Did he say ‘morning?’ Well, it’s night.” He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Muslims say.
However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur’an (Surat Al-Masad, 111) was revealed about him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the fire (Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would, therefore, be condemned forever. For ten years, all Abu Lahab had to do was say, “I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change—that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well, I want to become Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?” But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him, since he always sought to contradict Islam.
In essence, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words and I am finished. Come on, say them!” But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause.
How could Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) have possibly known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur’anic revelation if he (Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of Prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah’s messenger; for in order to put forth such a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that one has a divine revelation.
The Flight
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had in his own Prophethood and, consequently, in the divine protection of himself and his message, was when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) during their emigration from Makkah to Madinah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, a forger, and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, “Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave.” Or, “Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet.” Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, “Relax! Allah is with us and Allah will save us!” Now, if one knows that one is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all.
So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out—some way to explain the findings in the Qur’an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday that “the man was a liar,” and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday they tell you that “he was crazy.” What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both theories, both excuses to explain the information in the Qur’an.
An Encounter with a Minister
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room that we were sitting in, there was a Qur’an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur’an and said, “I have confidence in that book.” Looking at the Qur’an but not knowing which book it was, he replied, “Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!” In response to his statement, I said, “Let me tell you something about what is in that book.” And in just three to four minutes, I related to him a few things contained in the Qur’an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, “You are right. A man did not write that book, the Devil wrote it!” Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate, for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day, some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) raised a man from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, yet when Jesus arrived, he simply said, “Get up!” and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, “This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!” Now this story is rehearsed very often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, “Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!” Yet, ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur’an and all they can say is, “Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!” Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available.
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| | | | nadja
Homulus Foetus
Inscrit le : 17 Juin 2008
Messages : 11
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mar Juin 17, 2008 5:25 pm | |
| Bonjour Tout le monde,
C'est mon premier passage sur le site et cela me parait trés intéréssant.
Je pense que je suis ``croyante à tendance musulmane semi-pratiquante``
Croyante parceque je n'ai nul doute sur l'existence de dieu (tel qu'il est représenté dans les 3 les réligions monothéistes)
J'y crois tout simplement et comme cela a été dit c'est plus une histoire de coeur que de raison; la foi tout simplement.
Et je me dit tout les jours qu'il doit bien avoir un créateur pour que tout sois si coordonnés( la nature, l'univers en général)
Hors, j'emets de sérieux doute en ce qui concerne l'authenticité des livres sacrés et de tout ce qui a été reporté d'une manière ou d'une autre.
L'histoire nous montre sans cesse que c l'homme qui fait l'histoire selon un contexte et objectif précis.....
De famille paternelle musulmane non pratiquante et de de famille maternelle catholique ( assez pratiquante) ...je n'ai pas vraiement eu d'éducation réligieuse ciblée , sans doute que mes parents ne voulaient pas m'influencer par l'une ou l'autre et me laisser le libre choix...
Ils m'ont par contre transmis leurs valeurs et leurs croyances ce qui m'a poussé à l'adolescence de vouloir en savoir plus sur les réligions...
Et comme je l'ai expliqué pour une raison de coeur l'islam m'attirait plus ou disons plutôt l'histoire et la civilisation musulman vu dans son contexte...
Aujourd'hui ce qui compte pour moi c plus les valeurs (réligieuses) que les pratiques...c à dire qu'il est important pour moi de croire en dieu et de lui rendre grace mais il ne faut pas absolument que cela sois cadré par un rituel précis ( prière musulmane ou autre...)
Je crois aussi en une certaine logique ou raison basique à la porté de tout être huamain qui nous permettrais de distinguer le mal du bien sans se figer sur des écrits ou autres...
Exemple: je ne mettrais jamais le voile car je ne vois pas le mal à ne pas le mettre .
Cela résume un peu ma schyzophrénie religieuse  |
| | | | Dr Denfer
Maitre du Monde
Age : 88
Inscrit le : 30 Juin 2007
Messages : 3655
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mar Juin 17, 2008 5:29 pm | |
| Bienvenue Nadja .. je remarque qu'on je partage pas mal de points de vue concernant la religion .. notemment la veracite de certains ecrits .. et la portee de l'application de certaines regles
_________________
Toute société qui prétend assurer aux hommes la liberté, doit commencer par leur garantir l'existence Léon Blum
 Sur ce forum la femme est l'égale de l'homme, elle n'a donc pas besoin d'un bout de chiffon pour se cacher |
| | | | Zapp
Homo Addictus
Age : 31
Inscrit le : 02 Juil 2007
Messages : 1209
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mar Juin 17, 2008 5:52 pm | |
| | Dr Denfer a écrit: | | Bienvenue Nadja .. je remarque qu'on je partage pas mal de points de vue concernant la religion .. notemment la veracite de certains ecrits .. et la portee de l'application de certaines regles |
yé Nadja dakh'khaltou ba3dhou esseyd!
Bienvenue à toi 
_________________
- Si chaque personne essayait de se mettre dans la peau de l'autre avant d'émettre un jugement , le monde se porterait à merveille.
- Celui qui prétend comprendre l'être humain, prétend être dieu.
- Salut, sais tu ce que c'est l'humour?
- Biensûr que je le sais! c'est une forme d'esprit qui souligne avec ironie et détachement les aspects plaisants, drôles et insolites de la réalité.
- Ah d'accord.
Morale de l'histoire : Trop d'intellectualisme tue l'humour! |
| | | | Holy Trousers
Homo Pacificus
Age : 21
Inscrit le : 28 Mar 2008
Messages : 1295
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mer Juin 18, 2008 2:46 am | |
| | The Thing a écrit: | | Dr Denfer a écrit: | | Bienvenue Nadja .. je remarque qu'on je partage pas mal de points de vue concernant la religion .. notemment la veracite de certains ecrits .. et la portee de l'application de certaines regles |
yé Nadja dakh'khaltou ba3dhou esseyd!
Bienvenue à toi |
Bienvenue Nadja !!!!!
On a des parcours religeux tres similaires 
Donc ce qui t'attache a l'islam c'est quoi exactement ( ce que tu appelles histoire et civilisation musulmanes ) ? |
| | | | nadja
Homulus Foetus
Inscrit le : 17 Juin 2008
Messages : 11
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mer Juin 18, 2008 9:18 am | |
| Merci à tous pour l'acceuil 
Pour répondre à ta question Holy Trousers....je sais pas trop en fait...
c plus le comment du pourquoi ... ( sbe7 bikri et je devrais me mettre au boulot en fait)
Je veux dire la naissance de l'islam, l'évolution et la liberté que cette religion incarne à l'époque comparé aux judaisme et au christianisme c'est quand même une religion qui malgré tout les ( soit disant interdit) accordait par exemple un status plus évolutif aux femmes carréement plus humain, donnait une importance à la science et la recherche.
Donc à la base j'y vois une religion désireuse d'innovation et de liberté...d'humanisme
Aussi le coté ``3ibedet`` l'absence d'intermédiaire entre l'Homme et son créateur
etc...etc... |
| | | | Krishna's Child
Homo Habilis
Inscrit le : 31 Oct 2007
Messages : 545
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mer Juin 18, 2008 10:19 am | |
| | Holy Trousers a écrit: | Voici un texte interessant sur l'authenticite du Coran
| Spoiler: | | |
By Dr. Gary Miller**
It must be stressed that the Qur’an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the Qur’an’s information. The emphasis is in the other direction, in that the burden of proof is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur’an’s authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then one has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur’an encourages.
Looking for Mistakes
Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, “I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur’an.” Of course, I said, “Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said.” Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur’an’s authenticity, because the Qur’an itself offers the same challenge. And inevitably, after accepting its challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur’an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity.
An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur’an is that one’s inability to explain a phenomenon oneself does not require one’s acceptance of the phenomenon’s existence or another person’s explanation of it. Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else’s explanation. However, the person’s refusal of other explanations returns the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life but fits most wonderfully with the Qur’anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, “I do not believe it.” At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation oneself if one feels others’ answers are inadequate.
In fact, in one particular Qur’anic verse that I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if one hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from immediately or even at a later date.
One cannot just let it rattle around in one’s head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculative, then one must discern whether it’s closer to being true or false. But if all the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, one is still required to process all the information and make the admission that one just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research, and review the facts.
This familiarity with the information will give the person “the edge” when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
Exhausting the Alternatives
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur’an is evident in the confidence that is prevalent throughout it, and this confidence comes from a different approach: exhausting the alternatives.” In essence, the Qur’an states, “This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?” In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have been exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduced to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other.
On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur’an for hundreds of years and who claim, “One thing we know for sure: That man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!” They are convinced that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is a group that alleges, “Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was a liar!” Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradictions.
In fact, many references to Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by stating that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was crazy and then end by saying he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both! For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, “How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?” He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation.
The Critic’s Trail
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur’an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if someone is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, “Does anyone know the answer?” This type of behavior is characteristic of someone who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or one can be a liar. One can be either one or neither one, but one certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personality traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, “What is the origin of the Qur’an?” he tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, “If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur’an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar.” So in order to explain the fact that you bring him, he changes his position and says, “Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet.” At this point then you have to ask him, “If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?” Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, “Well, maybe he wasn’t a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet.” And thus he begins the futile cycle again.
Authenticity of the Qur’an: Another Approach
(Part 2)*
By Dr. Gary Miller**
As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur’an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) about the wall of Dhul Qarnayn—a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: “If Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people outright to their face what others could never say?” Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true, divine revelation.
A Revelation: Abu Lahab
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and he would go to the stranger and ask him, “What did he tell you? Did he say, ‘Black?’ Well, it’s white. Did he say ‘morning?’ Well, it’s night.” He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Muslims say.
However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur’an (Surat Al-Masad, 111) was revealed about him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the fire (Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would, therefore, be condemned forever. For ten years, all Abu Lahab had to do was say, “I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change—that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well, I want to become Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?” But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him, since he always sought to contradict Islam.
In essence, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words and I am finished. Come on, say them!” But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause.
How could Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) have possibly known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur’anic revelation if he (Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of Prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah’s messenger; for in order to put forth such a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that one has a divine revelation.
The Flight
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had in his own Prophethood and, consequently, in the divine protection of himself and his message, was when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) during their emigration from Makkah to Madinah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, a forger, and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, “Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave.” Or, “Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet.” Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, “Relax! Allah is with us and Allah will save us!” Now, if one knows that one is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all.
So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out—some way to explain the findings in the Qur’an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday that “the man was a liar,” and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday they tell you that “he was crazy.” What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both theories, both excuses to explain the information in the Qur’an.
An Encounter with a Minister
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room that we were sitting in, there was a Qur’an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur’an and said, “I have confidence in that book.” Looking at the Qur’an but not knowing which book it was, he replied, “Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!” In response to his statement, I said, “Let me tell you something about what is in that book.” And in just three to four minutes, I related to him a few things contained in the Qur’an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, “You are right. A man did not write that book, the Devil wrote it!” Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate, for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day, some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) raised a man from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, yet when Jesus arrived, he simply said, “Get up!” and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, “This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!” Now this story is rehearsed very often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, “Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!” Yet, ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur’an and all they can say is, “Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!” Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available.
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Pas tres interessant, l'auteur met au defi, tres sur de lui, n'importe qui de trouver des erreurs dans le Coran. On en trouve plein, mais pas seulement. Le Coran est truffe de phrases qui sont volontairement obscures, destinees a impressionner les esprits faibles mais qui ne veulent pas dire grand chose, ou qu'on peut comprendre ou expliquer comme on veut. Il contient aussi pas mal de passages ou on se dit : "bof, c'est un dieu qui dit ca?"
_________________
Une de perdue... Une de perdue |
| | | | Zapp
Homo Addictus
Age : 31
Inscrit le : 02 Juil 2007
Messages : 1209
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mer Juin 18, 2008 10:24 am | |
| | Krishna's Child a écrit: | | Le Coran est truffe de phrases qui sont volontairement obscures, destinees a impressionner les esprits faibles mais qui ne veulent pas dire grand chose, ou qu'on peut comprendre ou expliquer comme on veut. |
Mais elles en disent beaucoup pour Haroun Yahya & co.
_________________
- Si chaque personne essayait de se mettre dans la peau de l'autre avant d'émettre un jugement , le monde se porterait à merveille.
- Celui qui prétend comprendre l'être humain, prétend être dieu.
- Salut, sais tu ce que c'est l'humour?
- Biensûr que je le sais! c'est une forme d'esprit qui souligne avec ironie et détachement les aspects plaisants, drôles et insolites de la réalité.
- Ah d'accord.
Morale de l'histoire : Trop d'intellectualisme tue l'humour! |
| | | | nawarra
Homo Habilis
Age : 23
Inscrit le : 04 Fév 2008
Messages : 291
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Mer Juin 18, 2008 1:48 pm | |
| | Kouta a écrit: |
Je ne peux vraiment pas me rappeler comment ca s'est pasé ni quand exactement. Je n'ai pas sentit du tout un chagment dans ma personne ni dans mes principes ... mais le coeur Lui ...
Bref, y a de quoi rédiger tout un livre, mais je ne garde qu'une seule idée :
Croire est fondamentalement une question de coeur !
Ca fait tout juste +/- 3 ans que je suis Musulman (sans en etre un des pieux). |
exactement !!!!!!!!! c'est la foi ... croire sans voir ...
on le sent ...on le sait ...
_________________
la vie en rose ? oui... pourquoi pas ... |
| | | | Holy Trousers
Homo Pacificus
Age : 21
Inscrit le : 28 Mar 2008
Messages : 1295
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Jeu Juin 19, 2008 2:48 am | |
| | Krishna's Child a écrit: | | Holy Trousers a écrit: | Voici un texte interessant sur l'authenticite du Coran
| Spoiler: | | |
By Dr. Gary Miller**
It must be stressed that the Qur’an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source the Qur’an’s information. The emphasis is in the other direction, in that the burden of proof is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur’an’s authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then one has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur’an encourages.
Looking for Mistakes
Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, “I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur’an.” Of course, I said, “Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said.” Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur’an’s authenticity, because the Qur’an itself offers the same challenge. And inevitably, after accepting its challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur’an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity.
An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur’an is that one’s inability to explain a phenomenon oneself does not require one’s acceptance of the phenomenon’s existence or another person’s explanation of it. Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else’s explanation. However, the person’s refusal of other explanations returns the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life but fits most wonderfully with the Qur’anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, “I do not believe it.” At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation oneself if one feels others’ answers are inadequate.
In fact, in one particular Qur’anic verse that I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if one hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from immediately or even at a later date.
One cannot just let it rattle around in one’s head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculative, then one must discern whether it’s closer to being true or false. But if all the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, one is still required to process all the information and make the admission that one just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research, and review the facts.
This familiarity with the information will give the person “the edge” when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
Exhausting the Alternatives
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur’an is evident in the confidence that is prevalent throughout it, and this confidence comes from a different approach: exhausting the alternatives.” In essence, the Qur’an states, “This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?” In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have been exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduced to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other.
On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur’an for hundreds of years and who claim, “One thing we know for sure: That man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!” They are convinced that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is a group that alleges, “Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was a liar!” Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradictions.
In fact, many references to Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by stating that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was crazy and then end by saying he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both! For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, “How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?” He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation.
The Critic’s Trail
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur’an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if someone is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, “Does anyone know the answer?” This type of behavior is characteristic of someone who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or one can be a liar. One can be either one or neither one, but one certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personality traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, “What is the origin of the Qur’an?” he tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, “If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur’an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar.” So in order to explain the fact that you bring him, he changes his position and says, “Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet.” At this point then you have to ask him, “If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?” Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, “Well, maybe he wasn’t a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet.” And thus he begins the futile cycle again.
Authenticity of the Qur’an: Another Approach
(Part 2)*
By Dr. Gary Miller**
As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur’an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) about the wall of Dhul Qarnayn—a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: “If Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people outright to their face what others could never say?” Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true, divine revelation.
A Revelation: Abu Lahab
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and he would go to the stranger and ask him, “What did he tell you? Did he say, ‘Black?’ Well, it’s white. Did he say ‘morning?’ Well, it’s night.” He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Muslims say.
However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur’an (Surat Al-Masad, 111) was revealed about him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the fire (Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would, therefore, be condemned forever. For ten years, all Abu Lahab had to do was say, “I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change—that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well, I want to become Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?” But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him, since he always sought to contradict Islam.
In essence, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words and I am finished. Come on, say them!” But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause.
How could Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) have possibly known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur’anic revelation if he (Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of Prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah’s messenger; for in order to put forth such a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that one has a divine revelation.
The Flight
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had in his own Prophethood and, consequently, in the divine protection of himself and his message, was when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) during their emigration from Makkah to Madinah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, a forger, and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, “Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave.” Or, “Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet.” Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, “Relax! Allah is with us and Allah will save us!” Now, if one knows that one is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all.
So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out—some way to explain the findings in the Qur’an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday that “the man was a liar,” and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday they tell you that “he was crazy.” What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both theories, both excuses to explain the information in the Qur’an.
An Encounter with a Minister
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room that we were sitting in, there was a Qur’an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur’an and said, “I have confidence in that book.” Looking at the Qur’an but not knowing which book it was, he replied, “Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!” In response to his statement, I said, “Let me tell you something about what is in that book.” And in just three to four minutes, I related to him a few things contained in the Qur’an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, “You are right. A man did not write that book, the Devil wrote it!” Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate, for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day, some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) raised a man from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, yet when Jesus arrived, he simply said, “Get up!” and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, “This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!” Now this story is rehearsed very often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, “Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!” Yet, ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur’an and all they can say is, “Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!” Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available.
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Pas tres interessant, l'auteur met au defi, tres sur de lui, n'importe qui de trouver des erreurs dans le Coran. On en trouve plein, mais pas seulement. Le Coran est truffe de phrases qui sont volontairement obscures, destinees a impressionner les esprits faibles mais qui ne veulent pas dire grand chose, ou qu'on peut comprendre ou expliquer comme on veut. Il contient aussi pas mal de passages ou on se dit : "bof, c'est un dieu qui dit ca?" |
Eh bien en disant tout simplement que ce n'est pas interessant tu te precipites deja dans ton jugement.. en fait ce que j'ai trouve interessant c'est son raisonnement...
Et puis donne nous des exemples concrets ... |
| | | | Holy Trousers
Homo Pacificus
Age : 21
Inscrit le : 28 Mar 2008
Messages : 1295
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Jeu Juin 19, 2008 2:54 am | |
| | nadja a écrit: | Merci à tous pour l'acceuil
Pour répondre à ta question Holy Trousers....je sais pas trop en fait...
c plus le comment du pourquoi ... ( sbe7 bikri et je devrais me mettre au boulot en fait)
Je veux dire la naissance de l'islam, l'évolution et la liberté que cette religion incarne à l'époque comparé aux judaisme et au christianisme c'est quand même une religion qui malgré tout les ( soit disant interdit) accordait par exemple un status plus évolutif aux femmes carréement plus humain, donnait une importance à la science et la recherche.
Donc à la base j'y vois une religion désireuse d'innovation et de liberté...d'humanisme
Aussi le coté ``3ibedet`` l'absence d'intermédiaire entre l'Homme et son créateur
etc...etc... |
La naissance de l'islam : les guerres, les conquetes .. c'est interessant dans quel sens ?
Oui ca representait a l'epoque une certaine revolution par rapport au judaisme et christiannisme... et les cotes comme 3in pour 3in bouniya pour bouniya t'en dis quoi ? |
| | | | Ghoul
Homo Pacificus
Age : 34
Inscrit le : 02 Juil 2007
Messages : 1712
| | Sujet: Re: Qu'est ce qui vous a motivé a être croyant ou Athé(e) ? Ven Juin 20, 2008 12:21 am | |
| | Holy Trousers a écrit: | | Krishna's Child a écrit: |
Pas tres interessant, l'auteur met au defi, tres sur de lui, n'importe qui de trouver des erreurs dans le Coran. On en trouve plein, mais pas seulement. Le Coran est truffe de phrases qui sont volontairement obscures, destinees a impressionner les esprits faibles mais qui ne veulent pas dire grand chose, ou qu'on peut comprendre ou expliquer comme on veut. Il contient aussi pas mal de passages ou on se dit : "bof, c'est un dieu qui dit ca?" |
Eh bien en disant tout simplement que ce n'est pas interessant tu te precipites deja dans ton jugement.. en fait ce que j'ai trouve interessant c'est son raisonnement...
Et puis donne nous des exemples concrets ... |
Bof... il ne fait que rabâcher les mêmes discours des tenants des miracles du coran et autres illuminés dans un "encapsulage" soit disant rationaliste, avec un peu de critique ce discours peut être démonté, comme par exemple quand il dit que c'est au lecteur de prouver que le coran n'a pas une source divine, alors que la logique dit que c'est à celui que dit que le coran est de source divine d'en apporter la preuve irréfutable. |
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